The REWORK podcast

A podcast about a better way to work and run your business. We bring you stories and unconventional wisdom from Basecamp’s co-founders and other business owners.

EPISODE 0026

Farewell, Noah

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A lot of businesses start as side ventures or hobbies that grow into full-time pursuits. The trick is often in knowing when to quit a comfortable day job to start a new business. We sit down with one of our own at this crossroads. Noah Lorang headed Basecamp’s data team for the last eight years, and now he’s the sole proprietor of a woodworking shop that makes topographical maps. In this episode, Noah talks about how he made his hobby into a viable business, what Basecamp taught him about entrepreneurship, and what he gets from carving wooden maps that he doesn’t get from writing code. Thanks for all the camaraderie, data analysis, and puns, Noah! We’ll miss you.

Also, if you’d like to be Basecamp’s new data analyst, check out the job listing! We’re taking applications until October 12.


The Full Transcript:

Wailin: [00:00:00] How about you introduce yourself. Say who you are and what you do and what you’ll be doing?

Noah: [00:00:06] Yeah, so I’m, I’m Noah. For the last seven and a half years and for the next 10 days have run the data team at Basecamp and then for the last couple of years and starting full-time in about 10 days, I am the proprietor of a woodworking business called Elevated Woodworking. That makes wooden topographic maps.

[00:00:25] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.

Wailin: [00:00:26] Welcome to Rework, a podcast by Basecamp about the better way to work and run your business. I’m Wailin Wong.

Shaun: [00:00:32] And I’m Shaun Hildner. Today’s episode was personally very hard to record because our friend and coworker Noah Lorang, who has led the data team here at Basecamp for the last eight years, has just recently decided to leave us and pursue this fledgling woodworking business.

Wailin: [00:00:51] Noah’s been telling us at work about his woodworking for a while now and it’s been really fun to follow along on his journey. He takes map data and then feeds it into the CNC robots that he has and they carve out incredible topographical wooden maps that are very detailed and exactly to scale. And while we really enjoyed following along when he would tell us about an art fair he went to over the weekend or what he was up to in his workshop, it then took a very dark turn when he announced he was leaving Basecamp to pursue this business full-time.

[00:01:27] But I really wanted to get him on the phone and interview him about what his journey has been so far and how he decided to leave the comfort of this full-time job to do his own business. Because, I love origin stories. That’s what we do a lot of here on the show and I think it’s really neat to catch someone who has just made that decision and talk to them about their thought process. And hopefully for those of you who are maybe in a similar position or considering making a career change, this can be really helpful and interesting for you.

Shaun: [00:01:59] So best of luck to Noah in your new venture and for all the other listeners, let’s get back to Noah Lorang.

Noah: [00:02:12] So, my job has been to, to do kind of anything to do with data. So, that includes how we… What data we need to solve the problems that we have about the business, whether that’s marketing or support or financial or how fast the applications are, right? Like all those kinds of things. That’s kind of the scope of problem. And then, it’s like, what data do we need? How do we capture it? How do we store it? How do we analyze it? What do we do based on what we see in the data to change the business in some way that’s better? So that, at the end of the day, Basecamp is a better product. It’s a better as a financial business and it’s a better company for people to work on.

Wailin: [00:02:50] I’d like to state for the record that I take it as an intense personal betrayal that you’re leaving Basecamp.

Shaun: [00:02:56] Same

Wailin: [00:02:56] But I’m able to rise above that for the sake of this great content we’re going to have. Because I actually think it’s really interesting to catch someone in the process of deciding to leave a day job to do a different kind of business, their own business full-time. Because I think a lot of the people we find to interview on the show often have that kind of origin story. And I just think it’s really neat to catch someone right at that transition point. Especially someone that we know.

Noah: [00:03:30] Yeah. In five years it’s either going to be a great origin story or it’s going to be like a cautionary tale for people not to do what I’m doing.

Shaun: [00:03:37] They both work.

Wailin: [00:03:39] Well, can we get started with when you decided to start Elevated Woodworking as a side? Would you call it a side business or was it more of a hobby? Like what… how did it get started a couple of years ago?

Noah: [00:03:54] Yeah, so, I’ve been doing woodworking purely as a hobby for most of my life to some extent and pretty seriously for the last six or seven years. About two and a half years ago, I started making wooden maps and it just started as something that I was doing because I thought, hey, this is something that I can do. I’ve always loved maps. It’s pretty cool.

Wailin: [00:04:13] What was this first map that you made?

Noah: [00:04:16] Yeah, so the first map I made is—it’s a map of the United States. Each piece—of each state is made from a different piece of wood and then they all fit together on the wall. So it’s about seven feet wide, four feet tall, and it’s topographic, so it’s about two inches thick of the thickest, which should be the highest point in the u s and then it goes down to sea level, uh, at a wall and it’s just glued to my living room wall right now.

Wailin: [00:04:40] How long did it take you to make it?

Noah: [00:04:43] The first map I started, actually, I remember I started it on Christmas Day of 2015. And it took about four months. So I think it probably was something like 400 hours of total work to do the first one. And I ended up finishing it, I think, in April. So, yeah, four or five months from start to finish. So, I made one map and I put it on my living room wall and I posted it online. And people started asking, “Hey, I like this, can I buy it or can I buy a piece of it?”

[00:05:14] And so that’s kind of how it started is, that I just started selling first just on Etsy and then on my own website and not through some other ways too. I just started kind of selling these things, because I enjoyed making them and people seem to like them. And you know, that over time kind of became a pretty real business.

Wailin: [00:05:35] So these messages that you’ve got online, after you took a picture of it and shared it, where they from people you knew or were they from strangers?

Noah: [00:05:42] From strangers. I would say that like I’ve sold a couple thousand maps now of some form or another and maybe 10 of them have been to people that I know, including in full disclosure, Mr. Shaun Hildner, who’s a part of this podcast?

Shaun: [00:05:57] Yeah, I bought one for my father for Christmas last year.

Wailin: [00:05:59] Oh, really?

Shaun: [00:05:59] Just a little plot of land where his cabin is up at the north fork of the Flathead River.

Wailin: [00:06:05] Oh my goodness. That’s so nice. Does your dad have it hanging up?

Shaun: [00:06:05] I have no idea. I have not been back since Christmas, so. We’ll call them up and ask.

Wailin: [00:06:15] So you shared it online and it’s like strangers, like where did they… they found you just because like it got shared around. I’m just thinking like, I don’t know that many. I don’t know. Like I feel like everyone that I know through Facebook and Instagram, I know somehow. So how did the strangers find you?

Noah: [00:06:32] Yes, I put it on Reddit. Which was in hindsight, like a great idea and a terrible idea. I put it on, I think the DIY subreddit and I actually explained like, here’s how I did it and I published all the steps to copy it, because at the time, like it wasn’t a business. It was just something cool that I did, that I wanted to share. And so that’s really where it all started, was from posting it on Reddit. Although, I don’t, I didn’t ultimately sell that many maps to people from Reddit because it turns out that random strangers on the internet, who hang out in do-it-yourself subreddits aren’t necessarily the most likely to buy an expensive piece of art. But that was kind of where it started to get some attention. And then from there I ended up publishing an article again, kind of explaining how to do it for people who had computer-controlled routers and like to make thing in Make Magazine. And that was also in 2016 and so that started to get some attention to.

Wailin: [00:07:28] For those first few orders. Well, I mean all the way up until now, you’ve been doing this while also keeping your full-time job. So how did you manage the time in terms of what you would kind of promise to customers about turnaround and getting it to them and that kind of stuff?

Noah: [00:07:44] Yeah, so, I don’t have kids right now. I don’t have, any other hobbies besides this. So, I basically, for the last two and a half years have been working like a second full-time job on nights and weekends. And so, I basically always kept to a two- or three-week turnaround time is being kind of my standard turnaround. And, for the most part, I try not to have a backlog and in a lot of ways, I’ve always tried to act like this is a real business. And not just some hobby thing that I do and I feel like yet, or have time, because to my customers. Like, they don’t care if I have a day job or not. They just want the thing that they are buying. And so, like, I’m always tried to, to kind of treat it like that.

[00:08:26] One of the nice things about the product is that a lot of the time is taken up using a robot, basically a computer controlled router that does the rough cutting, so that can work while I do something else. And I’m also fortunate that I’ve spent the last, seven or eight years working at Basecamp, which is a company that I worked remotely for. So I can work, you know, next to my robot in the next room over and it’ll work for three or four or five hours, and then I’ll go and I’ll do something for five minutes and then it’ll work for another three or four or five hours. And so I’ve been able to do kind of the two things at once, you know, taking my coffee break and using that to feed my robots.

Wailin: [00:09:04] Do your robots have names?

Noah: [00:09:05] They do.

Wailin: [00:09:08] Are you gonna tell me what they are?

Noah: [00:09:09] Yeah, so I have two main robots. The first one, which is one that I built kind of from scratch, I call Shapey because it shapes things. It’s not a very good name, but it’s called Shapey. And then the second one I built from a kit, earlier this year it’s named Rick, which like doesn’t make any sense on its own. But at one point I was going to build another robot that I was going to call Morty, so I would have Rick and Morty. But then Morty got kind of scratched, and so now it’s just Rick. But yeah, of course I named my robots.

Wailin: [00:09:41] And how did you decide to go on Etsy?

Noah: [00:09:44] So, at the time I think Etsy was just kind of the default thing. A lot of people sell wood things on Etsy. It was really easy to get going. I didn’t need a website. There was no monthly fee. I can just upload pictures and descriptions and start making sales. And so, Etsy was just like the path of least resistance to not have to worry about bank accounts or like anything complicated. They just took care of all of that for me.

Wailin: [00:10:06] And did you learn any interesting things about what it’s like to be someone selling on Etsy? Like as you got more into it?

Noah: [00:10:15] Don’t kick me off Etsy, Etsy, but it’s not a great place. Because there’s a tremendous number of people posting stuff on Etsy and a lot of it isn’t what Etsy was really originally about. Right. Etsy people think about as being the source for handmade and vintage stuff. And they’re still all of that great stuff there. But there’s also all this other stuff. And so getting, traffic on Etsy, getting discovered on Etsy is really hard. And I’ve basically never thought of it is like Etsy is some way in which I’m going to get, a lot of people are going to discover me because Etsy is going to feature me or I’m going to show up well in Etsy’s the search results. I always treated Etsy as, like, it was a way to have an online store and getting the people to that online store is my responsibility.

[00:11:01] And so that’s changed a little since then because now I have a website and that’s where I put my focus in getting people to go to is my website. And so, what I do sell on Etsy is through kind of their discovery mechanisms. But Etsy is a really tough place to try to build a craft business and it’s an especially tough place, if you’re doing something that has competition. I don’t really have direct competition, so that’s great. But if you’re trying to sell like cutting boards or something like that on Etsy, that a million people make, I don’t know how anyone is doing anything of particular meaning there.

Wailin: [00:11:34] So what kind of marketing did you do? Especially, as you know, in kind of like the earlier part of this as you are still ramping it up. Like, did you feel like you needed to devote a lot of your time to getting your name out there and how did you do it?

Noah: [00:11:49] Yeah, I don’t really have a good answer to that because I’m at it. I try to do the social media marketing thing. Like, I post on Instagram and I have Facebook and Twitter and Pinterest and stuff like that. But, I am not very good at those and they don’t do a whole lot for me. And, I’ve bought a little bit of AdWords and Facebook ads and stuff like that. It kind of, one of the reasons why I’m excited to do this full-time is that I’ve grown to a point where I am basically not doing any real marketing beyond kind of word of mouth and some organic search results and doing events in person. So, like, I think there’s a lot of potential if I actually figured out how to do marketing, but mostly I’ve just kind of gotten by on, you know, people find my Reddit posts, do they find my Make Magazine article and then they search for my name. Or, someone who bought one gave it to someone and then they told some else about it. And that’s really been kind of how I’ve grown so far.

Wailin: [00:12:49] What kind of scale are you looking for?

Noah: [00:12:52] So, my goal is basically to build the biggest business that I can build that’s just me. I have absolutely no desire to build a business that has employees. Just because that’s not what I want to do. I don’t want to have…

Shaun: [00:13:06] I don’t like talking to strangers. I don’t like talking to employees.

Noah: [00:13:10] Yeah, I basically just want to be in my shop with my robots all day. And, like, yes. Okay, fine. Maybe I’m an agoraphobe, but, I just… like, that’s my goal. How big can I make this doing kind of it all by myself, not having to work 80 hours of hand-sanding maps? Like, 20 hours of hand-sanding maps a week, 30 hours. That, that sounds good. So, that’s kinda my goal. That works out to being like three or four times bigger than it is today. But, like, I would be perfectly happy to do a business where it never grows. It grows three or four times what it is today and then never grows further than that because that’s the pace that’s sustainable and fun and enjoyable for me.

Wailin: [00:13:54] How much of that, do you think, was influenced by working here at Basecamp?

Noah: [00:14:00] That’s a good question. So I think… I don’t know. At this point it’s hard to say. Basecamp has been the majority of my professional life, so, no doubt, everything I think about business is in some way influenced by it and I don’t even realize it. I think, certainly the notion that there is an element of business that I enjoy and so I want to build my business around being able to do the things that I enjoy is definitely something that I see at Basecamp and take from Basecamp. So, Basecamp, a company, right? It’s 52, 53 or something like that, employees. And it could be 500 employees, right? It could be 10 times the revenue that it is. But that would take away the things that Jason and David and other people here enjoy. And so, making that conscious decision of, this is what we, this is how we want to build it. I think it’s certainly something that I’ve seen firsthand here as being a tradeoff that you make because it’s not about kind of growing to the maximum scale.

Wailin: [00:15:04] When did you decide to buy a space and can you talk a little bit about that? Because I know that was a really huge decision.

Noah: [00:15:10] Yeah. So for a long time I was working out of my two-car garage, which had never had a car in it, in the entire time we’d owned our house. And then last year, I bought a 3,000, 3,800 square-foot commercial warehouse. And I had been kind of… casually is even probably overstating it. Like, I looked at commercial property listings because when you are a woodworker and you have 400 square feet, like everybody who has 400 square feet that I know of wants more. It’s just not a lot of space to do things. So, I had been looking for years at commercial properties and never really found anything that was kind of in my budget, but also like made sense for location and type of space. And then kind of purely by chance, I saw this property, which is an old commercial building and an old coal town. It’s like 10 minutes from my house and I, I still kind of was looking at it as a joke when I saw the listing.

[00:16:13] And I sent it to my wife and she said, yeah, it’s not bad. And, it just kind of happened from there. That it was… One of the great things, I live just outside of Pittsburgh and one of the nice things about living in what used to be a booming industrial town but now isn’t a booming industrial town, is that commercial real estate of this type is actually really affordable. And, so it was the right price at the right location. It’s a good amount of space. And so we did it and it was maybe a little crazy, but it certainly is nice to not be in the garage anymore.

Wailin: [00:16:45] When you committed to by buying that space, did you think to yourself, oh, this is going to be a full-time thing now or did you, were you still thinking this is just what I need to keep the hobby and the side business at the level I want it.

Noah: [00:16:58] There was the idea that maybe someday it would be a full-time thing. But I very explicitly didn’t buy it with the intention of like, this must be a full-time thing for this purchase to make sense. Like, it was always… the idea was like, well, maybe this becomes a full-time thing. Or maybe this is just like the best hobby space ever and I rent out half of it for storage or something like that. So, there was always that kind of both options were possible. I do think that having the space has certainly accelerated the business and made it feel more like a real thing. I’ve done—been able to do things that there was no chance I’d be able to do in 450 square feet. Like, there just isn’t the space to build some of these bigger maps that I’ve done. And, also like, when you have a commercial space, you need commercial insurance, which is given not to individuals but to businesses. And that puts you in a mindset of like, yeah, this is a legitimate thing that I’m doing here. So, you know, let’s build it to be something that’s legitimate to make it worthy of having this big space.

Wailin: [00:18:00] ad you already incorporated and all that stuff before bought the space.

Noah: [00:18:03] So, I’m in fact, not incorporated. I’m just a sole proprietorship and this is kind of the other thing that maybe I learned from Basecamp. Which is that a lot of people, a lot of companies are really focused on playing the company. And so, you have these startups that are just a person with an idea and they have an LLC and stock option agreements and other stuff before they’ve written a single line of code or whatever. And to me it’s like, how simple can I keep things? So, I’m a sole proprietor, it’s a pass-through entity on my taxes. I have the right business licenses and stuff, but I’m not some complicated corporate entity because it’s totally unnecessary for what I’m doing. Like, I’m just making, you know, one of a kind pieces of art, basically. And so I try to keep things as simple as I can.

Wailin: [00:18:53] When did the seed first get planted in your mind of I think I want to do this full-time?

Noah: [00:18:59] I don’t really know. I wish I did though.

Wailin: [00:19:01] Was it something Shaun said?

Shaun: [00:19:02] I wasn’t here.

Noah: [00:19:03] It’s definitely something Shaun said, and when Shaun went on sabbatical and I just, I couldn’t go on without him. And so I just was like, this is too much.

Shaun: [00:19:11] Now we’re talking.

Noah: [00:19:12] Now we’re talking. I think it’s been kind of an idea that I’ve had that this was potentially viable basically since last December. So, last December I was on sabbatical from Basecamp for the month and I did a lot of Christmas orders during my time off and I did a big Christmas fair. And it was… that kind of taught me two things. So one is, there, from that point it started to seem like maybe there is a really viable business here, right? This is the thing. I make something that’s very commonly given as a gift and so it’s very seasonal. And so, last Christmas was the first time I was really doing maps and selling them in a real way at the holiday season. And so I got the first hint that hey, this isn’t quite yet a viable business, but there’s definitely the potential there.

[00:20:00] And then, two is like, I actually like this routine, right? Of, I wasn’t going into work at Basecamp every day, but I was going into work every day and I really enjoyed that kind of rhythm of I was in the shop every day. I was making maps. It wasn’t a nights and weekends only thing. And so that was when I was like, well yeah, this, this actually, if I did this every day full-time, this would be pretty good if I could get it to that point.

Wailin: [00:20:23] Yeah. And then as you start to think more seriously about it, did you have a list in your head of the things you needed to check off or things you needed to get done before you could make a go of it full-time?

Noah: [00:20:33] I did, but I didn’t do those things. Or, so, I did some of those things and decided it wasn’t enough and then I didn’t do the other things. So, like in my dream world, my business, would already be two or three times bigger at the time that I went full-time. Because, if I did that, then there would be zero risk in it. Like, that would be the dream state.

[00:20:59] What I ultimately decided was that I would just ignore that fact, though, because like I’ve gotten to the point where I think there’s potential for the business here to be kind of at the scale that I want it to be, which is like me full-time busy. Nicely compensated, but not having to hire. I think that potential is there, but I also am kind of at the limit of how much I can grow the business while still working a full-time job for Basecamp and doing justice to both those things. And so that’s why I decided to take the plunge, y0u could say, maybe a little earlier than my dream was. Just because you know, never going to get to the dream unless I go for the dream, if that makes sense. But yeah, I mean like that was kind of the big thing I was waiting for. It was basically getting the business to the point where it was income replacement, which is I think kind of a ludicrous goal, so I abandoned it.

Wailin: [00:21:50] And this hearkens back to a question I asked you earlier about working at Basecamp and whether the principles that get lived out here and talked about a lot kind of made its way, made their way into your own business. And I wanted to ask you kind of the inverse of that. Were there any things that you had believed or kind of taken for granted or assumed working here that then you changed your mind about once you were building your own business? Does that make sense?

Noah: [00:22:18] I don’t know that there are principles that I changed my mind about, but there are a few things that are definitely different. That are really clear to me in doing maps versus Basecamp. So, one of them is that selling a physical product to consumers is very different than selling a piece of software to a business. Right? When people are buying a piece of software for a business, like they’re buying something functional. When people are buying something personally with their own money for display in their home, it’s a much more emotional thing. So, like that’s just very different from kind of the way that Basecamp thinks about building products and selling them because you’re not trying to scratch some functional itch with a wooden topographic map. Like, there is no such thing. And so, like, that’s very different from the experience of how, you know, I’ve tried to help sell Basecamp for a long time.

[00:23:10] I think the other thing is just like, Basecamp is in some ways a spoiling place in that it’s been around for so long, it’s got… it’s so big and so successful and has such a brand that kind of anything that Basecamp does gets a lot of buzz, gets a lot of attention, gets a good momentum. And starting from nothing is really a different experience from that. So we’ve launched new products at Basecamp. In the time that I’ve been here, I’ve helped on a number of them. But that’s really different from launching a new product when you have no existing product, when you have no existing audience, when you have no existing customer base. And, so that’s been a really different experience for me as well.

Shaun: [00:23:50] When you say people who are making more of an emotional decision when they buy your product, do you feel like you have to sell yourself more as the artist? Like is that, is that also what people are buying? Not just the art, but, oh, it was obviously made by this man and his robots.

Noah: [00:24:05] I think that yeah, a lot of the times when people are buying a piece of art, they’re not just buying the thing to look at, but they’re buying the story. They want to know how it was made and who made it and, and that kind of thing. I don’t do a good job of telling that story or selling that story. And that is not because I don’t think it is important or would be effective. I’m just bad at that. But, I do think that when people buy art in general, that’s a huge portion of what they’re buying is not just the finished object, but their understanding of the process and everything that went into it. I struggle with that. I also struggle with the question of whether like what I’m selling is “art”. And I wrote a medium post about this a few months ago because like people have their perceptions about what art is. And if a computer’s involved and a robot is involved, like is that art?

[00:24:57] And so some of that has made me probably more hesitant about telling the story of how it’s made then I should be, not that I like hide how it’s, right? Like I’m clearly not carving these things by hand and then selling them for 10 bucks. Like, that obviously doesn’t happen. But, I don’t know. To me, the story is a little complicated and so I just focus on what the end object is and how that makes people feel versus the story. But that’s almost certainly handicapping me in some ways.

[00:25:28] Like, I got to tell you that the running a craft business or an art business is one of the weirdest emotional journeys you can possibly be on because it’s like… Okay, I mean, this is the only small business I’ve ever started so I don’t have a lot of comparison. But I would guess that any small business owner, there’s a lot of anxiety, there’s a lot of self-doubt, there’s a lot of is what I’m building good enough? Is there a market here.

[00:25:48] When you are then building something that is like a piece of art or a craft, you have to add to that? Like, is my stuff any good? Like never mind, is there a market for it? But like is what I’m doing good? Does it resonate to people? Are People gonna like it? It is at times kind of crippling in terms of the immediate… This is just me, but the self-doubt that you experience when you’re trying to sell something that you made that is purely artistic is, I think, pretty substantial. And yeah, I suspect everybody feels it, but nobody talks about it.

Shaun: [00:26:19] What do you get out of woodworking that you were not getting from Basecamp?

Noah: [00:26:23] Yeah, it’s really satisfying to make something and to come in in the day and there’s nothing there. And at the end of the day there is something there that you can touch and feel and has something tangible. And that I think is what I get that, that you don’t get in the tech industry because it’s like at the end of the day might have a piece of code, but it’s really different when you start the day with a block of wood and you finish the day with a finished map. And that’s just a really satisfying feeling and it hasn’t gone away over a thousand maps.

Shaun: [00:26:55] Awesome. Thank you Noah.

Wailin: [00:26:56] Thanks Noah. I’m so sad.

Noah: [00:26:59] I’m sad too.

Shaun: [00:27:00] Yeah, so overall, what we took out of this interview is that everything sucks.

Noah: [00:27:09] Yeah, this is, it’s funny because… So, before I came to Basecamp, I was consulting, so I was like traveling all the time and working 80 or 90 hours a week and I was super burned out. And so, deciding to come to Basecamp, was like a really easy decision. Now, eight years later, deciding to leave Basecamp is like the hardest decision I’ve made in my life. I’m excited, but I’m also really sad and I’m going to miss the people and the work terribly. Um, yeah.

Wailin: [00:27:39] Well, I’m literally crying.

Shaun: [00:27:43] We got it. We finally got tears on the podcast.

Noah: [00:27:45] I got my crying done last week, so I’m not going to cry now. I don’t think.

Shaun: [00:27:49] Well, we weren’t here last week.

Wailin: [00:27:52] I was here last week.

Noah: [00:27:54] Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Shaun: [00:27:56] Well, we’ll miss you Noah.

Noah: [00:27:59] It’s not goodbye, it’s so long.

Wailin: [00:28:03] Okay.

Shaun: [00:28:03] Wailin across the table is an absolute wreck right now. You should know that.

Wailin: [00:28:08] I’m fine. I’m fine. Thank you for talking to us.

Noah: [00:28:13] Of course.

Wailin: [00:28:12] Oh wait, before you go, you should, tell everyone your social media handles so they can find you.

Shaun: [00:28:18] Oh yeah. Plug. Plug all your shit.

Wailin: [00:28:19] You’ve gotta plug it.

Noah: [00:28:19] Oh yeah. Yeah. This is the whole point. You should get your maps at ElevatedWoodworking.com or you can follow me on Instagram at ElevatedWoodworking or Facebook at ElevatedWoodworking or Twitter @ElevatedWood. Or, just Google elevated woodworking. And hopefully you don’t find someone else whose business name is the same.

[00:28:38] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.

Shaun: [00:28:40] Rework is produced by Wailin Wong and me, Shaun Hildner. Our theme music is Broken By Design by Clip Art.

Wailin: [00:28:46] You can find show notes for this episode and every episode at rework.fm. We are on Twitter @reworkpodcast, and you can also leave us a voicemail at (708) 628-7850.