The REWORK podcast

A podcast about a better way to work and run your business. We bring you stories and unconventional wisdom from Basecamp’s co-founders and other business owners.

EPISODE 0029

Rework Mailbag 3

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It’s time for another episode where Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson answer your questions! In this one, they discuss how to apply calm company principles to client work and classrooms, and talk about healthy ways for business partners to disagree.


The Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.

Wailin: [00:00:02] Welcome to Rework, a podcast by Basecamp about the better way to work and run your business. I’m Wailin Wong.

Shaun: [00:00:07] And I’m Shaun Hildner, and this episode comes out on November 6th which in the US is election day, so I hope you’re all getting out there to vote instead of listening to this podcast or maybe turn us on on the way to the polling place and on the way back.

Wailin: [00:00:25] And if you need a distraction from watching the returns come in later today.

Shaun: [00:00:28] Well, Wailin, we just had one of our biannual meetups where everyone from out of town at Basecamp comes in and we get to talk to a lot of people we don’t usually get to talk to. How did you survive?

Wailin: [00:00:40] I did Great. I didn’t get sick. I didn’t get the infamous meetup plague that a lot of us seem to catch when we’re all together after half a year of working remotely at home. And I don’t know if you saw, but at the Tuesday night all-Basecamp dinner, there was a raclette, which is like this huge half a wheel of cheese hooked up to this machine that would melt the top strip and then the guy who was operating it would tilt it and then scrape the top strip of melted cheese onto a little toast point for you. That was the highlight of my meetup week.

Shaun: [00:01:18] I think I might have been the plague-bringer this time.

Wailin: [00:01:22] Oh, thank you very much.

Shaun: [00:01:22] I kind of showed up on Monday—

Wailin: [00:01:24] Coughing on everyone.

Shaun: [00:01:24] —pretty nasty cold, yeah. But the highlight of my week was definitely being the dungeon master for 11 coworkers who did some fantasy shenanigans late into Wednesday evening.

Wailin: [00:01:38] I wanted to be there, but I could not, I don’t know what you did with my character.

Shaun: [00:01:43] Oh, we killed her off immediately.

Wailin: [00:01:43] Wonderful.

Shaun: [00:01:44] I kid, I kid.

Wailin: [00:01:45] Lady Mary Markle Sparkle, I never knew you.

Shaun: [00:01:49] One of our greatest wizards.

Wailin: [00:01:53] Is she a wizard? I don’t even remember.

Shaun: [00:01:54] This is your character!

Wailin: [00:01:55] I know, it’s been so long since I created her ‘cause I didn’t get to play in the last one either. I was busy.

Shaun: [00:02:01] Oh no.

Wailin: [00:02:02] I know.

Shaun: [00:02:03] One of the nice things about meetup week though is that you and I get to bring a bunch of our Basecamp coworkers into the recording studio to talk to them and y’all be hearing a lot of that in some upcoming episodes. But today let’s start at the top with Jason and David, the cofounders of Basecamp answering listener questions.

Nathan: [00:02:28] Hey, my name is Nathan Simmons and my question is, what’s the best way to go about looking for a company that does have this commitment to having a calm work environment and atmosphere? Um, when you’re looking at a job description.

David: [00:02:45] I think the funny thing is that most job postings are actually very revealing about the culture of the company. And you can look for markers, not just in the job posting, but also in how the company talks about itself. If you look at their blog, if they have a blog, what are they bragging about? Are they bragging about raising a bunch of money? Are they talking in terms of, oh, we’re just all so passionate that we just love staying at the office. Are they talking about all the activities that they’re doing after hours at the office?

[00:03:20] There are a lot of these markers where you can get a sense of whether the company is a calm kind of company or if it’s probably kind of a little crazy kind of company. Sometimes it’s even more explicit. There are job postings where they specifically talk about, well, we expect people to put in the hard work. If ever you see mentioned hard work, that’s a euphemism for overwork.

[00:03:39] There’s never a reflection of hard work being 40 hours a week. Hard work is always 60, 80, 100 hours a week. So, be careful when you see those pointings. And I think part of it is simply just developing an awareness. If you read through It Doesn’t Have to be Crazy at Work, you’re going to pick up some markers and some ways we talk about a calm company and you can see the contrast to that kind of language in most companies’ way of telling their own story. Read an interview with, if it’s a startup, with the founders and what they think about and what they’re proud of. If what they’re proud of is how much effort they put in or how much money they raised or any of these other factors, you have a reasonable indication that is probably not going to be a calm kind of company.

Dan: [00:04:24] Hi Guys, this is Dan from Oklahoma. I got a question for Jason and David. Your pedigree, your history is how you came out of client work. My question is whether you have advice on how to apply some of these principles for those who still have to do client work. They’re still doing client work but want to have that thing kind of calm company when they don’t get to pick what they get to work on quite as much. When sometimes you’re still a slave to the client. And there’s some nuances to that.

Jason: [00:04:53] Yeah. I’ve heard people talk about this a lot and I’m always surprised that people don’t feel like they have the opportunity to create their own work… or their own work flow or a or company because they do work for other people. You can work however you want to work. So if you think that a client expects you to get back to them, 11:00 PM on a Wednesday night and you get back to them 11:00 PM on a Wednesday night, then they’re going to keep asking for things at 11:00 PM on a Wednesday night. But if you don’t and you wait till the next morning or you send them an email back saying, you know, I’ll get back to you tomorrow morning, then they’re going to begin to understand that that’s how you work.

[00:05:29] And just because someone’s paying you, it does not mean they own all of your time, 24/7, at all. They are part of your workflow, part of your work load. But they’re not everything. They’re not everything to you and you’re not everything to them. So, I don’t think doing client work means you can’t run calm company. I think we pretty much did that.

[00:05:48] And also you do get to choose what kind of work you want to do. We get to choose that we work on a product that we’re building for ourselves. But when we were doing client work, we also essentially chose our clients by, if you look at the first version of, the 37signals site, which is at 37signals.com/manifesto, it was very opinionated. We had 37 points of view that we shared. There was no pictures of work that we actually did. There were just 37 ideas. And that basically put up hurdles and obstacles for some companies who would never hire us and also attracted those who would.

[00:06:21] So, you can definitely fish for the kind of clients you want. And you can also fire them if they’re not the ones you want. And you do have a lot more control than I think a lot of people think they have.

[00:06:33] So I do think that you have to be more explicit about it, perhaps, because other people’s expectations then come into play. And if they expect that you’re going to always be available to them and expect that you’re always going to answer their questions, you need to tell them that that’s not gonna happen. But lay down the ground rules, and I think that you can absolutely set up a calm company as a client company.

David: [00:06:53] I saw an example of this recently where I worked with two lawyers, within a couple of weeks of each other. One lawyer in Denmark and one lawyer in New York. And when I started working with the lawyer in Denmark, it was very clear that work for them ended at, I think it was four, and if I sent an email at six, it would get answered the next morning. And never did they offer me an excuse or an explanation for that. That was just business.

[00:07:19] On the contrast, I started working with the lawyer in New York and the first thing the guy said when we got on the phone. “Oh, by the way, I’m always available. You can call me anytime. I’m going to be like there and there tomorrow and the afternoon? But my cell phone’s always on. He was actively setting expectations for having it crazy at work. I wasn’t even asking for it, but obviously when he sets it up in such way, most people, most customers would take him at his word.

[00:07:46] So, not only should you set realistic boundaries, don’t over promise. Why would you over promise a crazy work environment? In a lot of cases, customers might not even be asking for it. You’re putting it on their plate that this is how you work. And I think it’s a form of disrespect to yourself that you’re worth that little, that your engagement is only worthwhile for the customer if you are just available at all times, all hours, every single day of the week. That is an abusive relationship to set up from the start. And then, it’s not surprising if that’s not the only abusive aspect off the relationship. If you’ve already said, hey, my time and my boundaries are basically nonexistent, don’t be surprised if customers didn’t push you on all sorts of other boundaries, not just your time.

Caller: [00:09:11] Hey guys. I’m a teacher, teaching computer science. It’s a lot different in that we have about seven or eight guaranteed meetings a day that last 42 minutes, and those are our classes. After that, we still have to grade papers and then prep for the next day. You know, you’re not going to change those meetings and you need to give students as immediate feedback as possible. So I’m wondering, could you see any way to implement these ideas inside of a school?

David: [00:09:11] So, I just had my oldest kid, who is six starting kindergarten. And he started at a school that we specifically sought out because it didn’t sound like that. That it wasn’t just a series of meetings where the most important thing was for them to get their work graded. And I think that there’s a fundamental conflict in how a lot of schools are set up that puts you in this situation of basically a crazy classroom because the constraints are such that they promote crazy. And a lot of that is tied into this expectation of work as something being graded or these discontinuous setups where you’re forcing kids to do certain things at certain times and they don’t want to do it at that time. They don’t want to do that kind of work. They don’t want to be graded all the time and they might act out or they do other things in such a way that it feels like it’s crazy 40 minutes.

[00:10:07] But there are other ways of teaching. And that’s one of the interesting things that I’ve found, that all schools don’t have to be run on a program like that. And there are all sorts of interesting schools doing all sorts of interesting things with different formats, different starting times. I think simply the starting time is a huge part of it. If you look at most of these studies on kids and when they’re most alert, it’s not at 7:30 in the morning. There’s some schools literally started at 7:30 in the morning, I learned. That sounds crazy to me, that’s crazy off the bat. My kid’s school starts at nine, a much more reasonable hour for the kids and likely for them to actually learn something. The other thing, too, is that the regiment of the papers and so on. Again, my kid’s school, that’s not what they do, a fair amount of what they do are student led projects. And that’s a very valid way of teaching and learning. So, I find that a lot of the accounts I hear of crazy classrooms, there’s a tinge of blame on the kids that, oh, if they would just sit still and listen, everything would be great. Well, why aren’t they sitting still? Probably because the environment isn’t what they want. First of all, asking kids to sit still for, what did you say, eight times 40 minutes. That sounds hard. Um, I mean, I have a hard time sitting still for that long and I’m an adult. I can only imagine that my six-year-old or seven-year-old or eight-year-old kid at some point, does not want to sit still for that long. So, there’s some error just in that fundamental setup.

[00:11:44] But, I would recommend the writings of Alfie Kohn. He has a wonderful series of books on education thinking about this. How can we make the classroom not crazy simply by listening to kids, following their autonomy? One of the most influential ones of that is Punished by Rewards and there’s The Myth of the Spoiled Child, and he has, I think he’s probably written 30 books. I would be very much on that if I was an educator or a parent, to figure out how you can make it a calmer school.

Jason: [00:12:19] I would also add don’t give homework. I’m not a big fan of homework. I don’t think homework is… homework to me is it’s like kids go to school all day and then they have to go to school at night. Again, I don’t, I don’t believe that that’s… that’s kind of like working 10-hour weeks basically, or, I’m sorry, 50-hour weeks, 60-hour weeks, 70-hour weeks or like 10-hour days basically. So I’m not a big fan of that personally. I don’t know if you’re doing that and if you’re doing that you’re probably creating more work for yourself if you have to grade more homework and there’s some extra stuff there.

[00:12:46] The other thing is, I remember, I think it’s actually a really interesting point that you bring up that school feels like a series of meetings. I remember a lot of my classes did feel like meetings and there were some classes I had with wonderful teachers that never felt like meetings. They felt like special moments and surprises. They made the class interesting. They taught everything in context and it was very physical and how they explained things and it was just fun to go to. I remember waiting to, I couldn’t wait to go to those classes.

[00:13:12] And so, you’re probably, if you’re a teacher in a school district in a school, you probably don’t have a lot of power over, like whether or not you can change the, the 42-minute classroom session setting. But how you teach and think about the kind of work you’re creating for yourself and the work you’re creating for others after school, I think you definitely have a lot of power over that. So, those things or other things I think y0u might be able to do to make things a little bit less crazy at work. And also, by the way, it becomes crazy for parents too when the kids have to do homework at night and they need more help and like it’s just, it’s hard to do all that stuff for everybody. So I would just kind of reduce the workload, I think, and, and teach… 42 minutes should be enough to teach something interesting every day.

Antoine: [00:13:49] Hi, this is Antoine from France. My question to Jason and David, is how would you apply the principles of your latest book to the challenges of a brand-new company with limited runway. And is there a time or a place for company not to be calm?

David: [00:14:06] I think first of all limited runway is a design decision of your company. Why do you have limited runway? Well, it’s because you have a certain amount of money. It’s a fixed pool and it’s going to run out. You don’t have to start a company like that. We didn’t start a company like that. We had essentially unlimited runway for Basecamp when we first got going because it was a side project.

[00:14:29] So, I think more companies could very well be started in that way where you’re funding basically on unlimited runway because you have something else paying the bills. Then the second part of it is even if you do have a limited runway, is it more productive to say work 80 hours a week? It might feel like you have to because you can see the end of the runway and you’re going to crash burn if you run out of it. But that doesn’t mean that it actually works.

[00:14:55] So, I think there’s just a fundamental part of can you squeeze more productivity, creativity, and work out of your brain, such that 80 hours work. And our opinion is the answer’s no. For the vast majority of creative work that’s just not productive. Whether that’s programming or it’s design, it’s writing or any of these other activities, they don’t yield to brute force in this way. You can’t just pour out more hours and get more diligent, awesome work. So, I think you might sometimes feel like you have to, but then you should take a step back and realize, well, will it actually work? Can I actually do this? And the answer is no.

Jason: [00:15:36] The other thing that I see—I’ve advised a number of early startups and given advice and been part of some accelerator things and sat in on some meetings. And I’m always surprised by how much time is spent on things that don’t matter when companies are brand new. So, I see companies worrying about their branding. I see companies worried about raising—fundraising, by the way, is a huge time suck for a lot of companies. And there’s probably quite a few things you’re doing with your time that aren’t necessary early on. I think if it doesn’t involve making the thing you’re making and knowing exactly what you’re making, you probably shouldn’t be doing it early on.

[00:16:12] So you might be able to cut out a bunch of things you’re doing. And I don’t know, I mean I’m talking generally, I don’t know your business is and whatever, but I’m certain there’s probably a good 20% of things that you’re doing that you don’t need to do. So, sometimes if you’re doing those, you feel like you have to work harder because you have less time to do the other stuff you need to do. Or you’re sitting in meetings or you’re networking constantly or you’re trying to do partnership deals that you probably don’t need yet.

[00:16:33] I mean, I don’t know, again, speaking generally, but there’s certainly things you probably don’t need to be doing. So I’ve just always been surprised by how much stuff people are doing that they don’t need to do. And then, further, I understand if people don’t have a lot of money to start a business, especially if you’re bootstrapping. But you also don’t need to hire a bunch of people. And that’s another thing I see is that people, people who are starting brand new businesses have six or seven or eight people already when they’re starting a business. You know, if you can only afford one or two people, you’ve got to figure out how to do it yourself until you can afford the third or the fourth. Instead of just kind of, you know, racking up the expenses and then your runway gets shorter and shorter and shorter. Just have few, and it’s easy to say, I guess, but to what else am I supposed to say? Like, if you have fewer people, you have fewer expenses.

[00:17:20] So look at where you’re spending your money. Look at what you’re spending your money on. Do you have an office you don’t need? Do you have another person who don’t need? Are you doing other things you don’t need? Are you paying licensing fees for things you don’t need? Like what, what are you actually spending your time and money on? I would look very, very carefully at that instead of just kind of racking up the expenses.

[00:17:38] I think the expense side of the equation is almost never, it’s actually almost never ever discussed in startup land. You hear a lot of people talking about revenue and whatnot, but costs are very, very hard to talk about for some reason. And one other thing I would suggest is, whatever systems or services you’re using, look for things with fixed costs versus variable costs. Things—software especially—can get very expensive very quickly as you add employees. So, if you’re paying $25 a person for something, you know, you add a few more people, you’re all of a sudden paying a couple hundred bucks a month for something that you probably don’t need to pay for. So look for fixed things where you can predict your expenses and keep that under control.

[00:18:17] There certainly are moments when you know, if something is imposed on the outside, for example, if you have to reveal product at a trade show and you’ve just haven’t gotten it done and you got to get done by Saturday? Yeah, that exists, right?

[00:18:28] I would, though, look at that and go why’d it turn into this. Did we just find out about it two days ago? Okay. That’s something else. Have we known about it for three months? Well why did go to the end?

[00:18:37] The other thing I would say is that there certainly are crisis moments, there’s things like that. But a lot of deadlines, while they’re very valuable and we believe in them, they’re self-imposed and you’ve got to make sure that you’re setting realistic deadlines so you’re not causing yourself undue amount of stress trying to meet things that you can’t meet or giving people too much work to do and not enough time, that sort of thing. So a lot of that stuff, a lot of that stress and crisis actually is not natural. It’s manmade and so you have to be careful about that as well.

Michael: [00:19:03] Hi, my name is Michael Hopkins and my question is: even in a calm company, sometimes there are emergencies or industry worries, or things that drive a burst of activity and I’m just wondering what Basecamp does or what companies can do to come down from that and recover from that as quickly as possible and reduce the risk of setting a precedent?

David: [00:19:25] I think having a culture of recharging all the time is how you do that. So it’s not so much just about how do you come back from this particular crisis. Because, work long enough without a break and that’s a crisis in itself. If you set up a culture where taking vacations is not just sanctioned and okay, but actively encouraged, you’re going to have these natural breaks where people get a chance to recharge. We have a variety of these policies. One thing is that we have a fixed vacation policy where everyone should be taking at least three weeks of vacation every week-—every year—three weeks of vacation every week!— every year.

[00:20:08] On top of that other things like every three years we encourage people to take a one-month sabbatical. And if you are in this relaxed state as your default, you can absorb a shock. You don’t need necessarily extra recuperation time from that. But if you’re already running at the red line, there’s no margin for another shock. You’re going to blow up the engine if you try to push harder. So I would look at it more as a preventative measure rather than as a remedy once you’ve gone over.

[00:20:43] But let’s just say you have to work a weekend for whatever reason. Well then of course you should take Monday and Tuesday off. It’s not that hard. The give and take has to be as we write in the book, that is not just life giving, it’s that there has to be a balance to it. So sometimes maybe that is if people are working on the weekend and they get the start of the week off, but I wouldn’t focus so much on that aspect of it. Focus on the preventive care. Focus on making sure that employees, the vast, vast majority of time are working in a calm environment where they can be rested and recharged and ready to absorb the small shocks that come along the way.

Jason: [00:21:22] Yeah, I think there’s something else I would add, which is—this is part of the stoic philosophy, I guess—which is make sure that your… know what’s under your control and what things you can’t control. Aware of the things you can’t control.

[00:21:35] So, for example, in your question, I think you lump together a few things. One was crisis. That may be something you might be able to control. Maybe your servers are down or maybe there’s something that you did, whatever. But then you said, industry changes or I forget exactly how you worded it, but… Maybe a competitor came out with something and all of a sudden you’re scrambling. Oh my God, we got to do that. Well, you probably don’t have to. And also, you can’t control what competitors are gonna do. So if every time someone else makes a move, you lose sleep over it. Or every time someone else makes a move and you stress out about it or you drop everything because you’ve got to do something else to counter someone else’s move, you’re forever going to be in crisis mode.

[00:22:12] So, pay attention to what you can control and then also recognize what you can’t. And it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay attention to the competition and whatnot, but they should not be driving what you’re doing. Just like, you’re probably not driving what they’re doing. They’re doing something and you’re trying to react. I would just stay away from those reactions. Pay attention to what you’re reacting to and then just kind of realize that like, we have to figure out what we’re doing and we have to stay the course with that, probably. Change if we have to, but only because we want to, not because we’re being forced to. And I think things will calm down pretty quickly. But yeah, crisis is one thing where if you’ve made the mistake and it’s under your control and you can fix it, that’s one thing. But if you can’t, stay away.

Shaun: [00:22:52] And we have one more, this one written in from Delynn Berry, who asks if you guys ever disagree and do you have any tips on healthy ways for partners or cofounders to argue?

David: [00:23:03] I think it would disagree pretty commonly, but most of the time we disagree about the small stuff. With a fair amount of intensity. I think we’ve probably gotten better at that over the years in realizing that any individual disagreement is just one in a long series of conversations and debates and questions we are going to have. So, if you blow up the room to win one argument, you set yourself up to fail for the next 19 you have to make just that month alone. So you have to have the long game in mind.

[00:23:38] And one of the things we write about in the book is this tactic disagree and commit, that I think after we named that we got better at it. Where just now we’ll have some debate on something and maybe Jason feels more passionate about this issue. And I just go like, do you know what? I don’t agree, but I’m going to commit to whatever we decide on here and let’s try it out. And if it doesn’t work, we can change our mind. And vice versa. Oftentimes we settled these disagreements with measuring who cares more. And it’s quite rare that there’s a tie. Usually one person is more passionate about some topic or another, and that’s a good invitation for the other to disagree and commit.

[00:24:20] But I also think that there’s value to that disagreement. There’s value to the dialectic approach to problem solving where you’re hearing argument, a counter argument, argument, counterargument, and you arrive at some conclusion that’s better because it was subjected to an intense argument. It’s just there’s a fine line between having an intense argument and debating the merits and tipping over into, well, you’re just saying that because you always want to win or you’re just saying that because you always, or you never… Whenever you hear these key words always or never, it’s usually because it’s being labeled on a personal level on a person. Not because it’s about the merit of the discussion and then you know, you’re kind of adrift and you kind of have to come back.

[00:25:04] So you should be able to have a very intense on the merits discussion and then walk out of the room and like, oh yeah, hey, should we go for a drink? Like, if it’s affecting the personal relationship, you’re off to a bad place because no single individual decision almost is going to make or break the company. It is the sum of a hundred or a thousand or 10,000. We’ve probably had over the years 10,000 debates about little things and it’s the average sum of that that has to pay out. Just winning one argument or blowing the whole thing up over one thing, it’s never going to be worth it.

Jason: [00:25:41] The other thing I would say is that most of these things probably aren’t critical, like aren’t really critical. So if you just give in and go, yeah, go ahead, let’s do it your way. This makes sense. Like it’s going to be fine. Most things are probably going to be fine either way is another way to look at it. Like it doesn’t really matter which way you go unless it’s really thoroughly a 180-degree difference about something that’s material. Most things just aren’t material. Most decisions you make in business don’t really matter one way or the other. So I think that’s just an important recognition as well. And something to kind of gut check yourself on. Like, are we really, does this matter anyway? Like can we just do it and try it and see what happens? I think we did that with the pricing thing.

[00:26:21] I don’t know. You didn’t seem so into it initially. You’re like, yeah, we’ll see what happens. And then you kind of, you negotiate to figure out a solution like, which is not a compromise on like if David wanted to price the product at 50 bucks and I wanted to price it at 99. It wasn’t like, and that wasn’t the numbers, but it’s not like, okay, let’s meet in the middle of 75. That’s not the point. The point is like, well, can can we try this for six months at 99 and so you have to sort of figure out how to negotiate the outcome. Not so it’s a compromise but so it gives an opportunity, it gives it one direction opportunity to play itself out and then figure out if that worked or not. If it didn’t work then we can go back to the drawing table again. So I think that’s the other way to approach these sorts of things.

David: [00:26:58] Most decisions are reversible.

Jason: [00:27:01] Yup.

David: [00:27:02] And whenever they are, you can just give it a go and see whether it ends up in one camp or the other. The other thing to keep in mind is now, let’s say we’ve had 10,000 arguments about different things. I can look back at that and say like, hey, I’m wrong a fair amount at the time. So that’s a good way to approach any discussion is even if I believe on the merits that we should do it one way, like let’s say 20% of the time I was just simply flat out wrong. So, it makes it easier to disagree and commit when you realize that like, hey, I can remember at least five times within the last year where I was on the wrong side of things so let’s just play it out.

Jason: [00:27:38] Yeah.

Shaun: [00:27:40] Rework is produced by Wailin Wong and me, Shaun Hildner. Our theme music is Broken By Design by Clip Art.

Wailin: [00:27:47] You can find us on Twitter @reworkpodcast. Show notes for this episode, and every episode can be found at rework.fm or on Twitter @reworkpodcast And our voicemail number is (708) 628-7850. If you want to get in your questions early for the next mailbag.

Shaun: [00:28:05] We’re always accepting them.

[00:28:07] Wailin. Now, the most important part of this episode.

Wailin: [00:28:10] Yes.

Shaun: [00:28:12] This is going to be a surprise to you and a big shout out to the place that gives me sandwiches every single day.

Wailin: [00:28:17] Yes?

Shaun: [00:28:17] J.P. Graziano is in Chicago [crosstalk].

Wailin: [00:28:19] Oh!

Shaun: [00:28:19] The best Italian sub in town. They gave me a very nice baseball cap that I have put all the names of everyone who wrote and called in for this mailbag episode into this hat. And we’re going to draw three of them.

Wailin: [00:28:35] Okay. Here we go. Nathan Simmons. Congrats.

Shaun: [00:28:39] Congrats, Nathan. All right, Wailin. One more? Nope, two more.

Wailin: [00:28:42] Two more. Two more. Jesse from Puerto Rico.

Shaun: [00:28:47] All, right. Congrats Jesse.

Wailin: [00:28:50] Okay, one more.

Shaun: [00:28:51] All right, one more.

Wailin: [00:28:53] Gary Hall.

Shaun: [00:28:55] And Gary. Thank you very much to everyone who called in and wrote in. We never have enough time to fit everyone into these episodes, but we appreciate everyone who participated.

Wailin: [00:29:08] And next time let’s try to get more ladies submitting questions. Cause this time you think it was all dudes.

Shaun: [00:29:14] Stacey. I know you called in like today, so I’m sorry we didn’t have time to get you in this one.

Wailin: [00:29:21] Next time, Stace!

Shaun: [00:29:23] We’ll try to get you on the next one.

Wailin: [00:29:24] I don’t know if you go by Stace. I’m sorry. That was very presumptuous.