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We Love the Subs

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In 2004, fast food company Quiznos launched a national advertising campaign featuring animated rodent-like creatures screech-singing an ode to the chain’s toasted sub sandwiches. The TV commercials were instantly polarizing and lodged themselves in many viewers’ brains like a recurring fever dream. In this episode, the people behind the campaign share the story of how the ads got made.

The Full Transcript:

Jonas: [00:00:00] I have a file on my computer that’s apparently been migrated over many different file systems called Quiznos.swf, which is a flash format.

Wailin: [00:00:07] Jonas Downey is one of my coworkers here at Basecamp. He heads up the design group and this file he’s talking about—Quiznos.swf—dates back to 2004. For those of you who haven’t heard of Quiznos, it’s an American fast food chain that makes toasted sub sandwiches. And if you were to open Jonas’s file you’d be confronted with a truly bizarre 30- second television ad.

Jonas: [00:00:33] It’s these weird, mutant, bizarre, horrific-looking monkey animals singing intentionally off-key to you about sandwiches that are supposed to be appetizing but like juxtaposed with these things that are gross, almost.

Quiznos Ad Clip: [00:00:46] We love the subs! ‘Cuz they are good to us! The Quiznos subs! They are [crosstalk].

Wailin: [00:00:58] This is an actual commercial that ran on national television. It features two animated furry animals with bulging eyes and a mouth full of bare teeth. One is wearing a black bowler hat. The other was wearing the kind of hat that old-timey sea captains used to wear and it’s playing an acoustic guitar. They’re singing about Quiznos sandwiches, while bopping around over footage of the subs coming out of an oven.

Quiznos Ad Clip: [00:01:20] The Quiznos subs! Quiznos! Mm-mm-mm toasty.

Jonas: [00:01:26] It’s like this memorable horrific advertising campaign. It’s almost an assault, like in a way. And I remember just seeing him be like, what the hell was that? Like what just happened? And I like immediately loved it. Sometimes there’s these flashpoints where weird underground stuff finds its way to popular culture and the mainstream gets like a little exposure to it. Like I feel like the early days of MTV were like that, where it was like all these people doing weird artsy stuff happened to find a venue.

[00:01:56] There was a crossover between that sort of experimental early Internet flash-based design with traditional TV advertising. Somebody took a risk. Somebody at Quiznos was like, yeah, we want those mutant monkey things to be our spokesperson for our sandwiches.

[00:02:12] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.

Wailin: [00:02:15] Hello and welcome to Rework, a podcast by Basecamp about the better way to work and run your business. I’m Wailin Wong.

Shaun: [00:02:21] And I’m Shaun Hildner. It’s been 15 years since this ad campaign aired on national television prompting a huge response. People wrote letters and called Quiznos corporate about the commercials, either because they loved them or because they were totally repulsed. The ads became a national news story.

Wailin: [00:02:38] The new cycle eventually moved on. Quiznos switched ad agencies and later entered a period of decline where it closed a huge number of locations and filed for bankruptcy. But the ads with the strange, atonal singing critters, those remain iconic. And like Jonas points out, it seems improbable that these commercials made it onto TV at all. Today on Rework the people behind the campaign tell the story of how it got made.

Joel: [00:03:04] I am Joel Veitch. I make silly stuff.

Wailin: [00:03:07] Joel is the guy to thank for this whole thing.

Joel: [00:03:10] So the first thing I ever did that made any money was a thing called the Swearotron, which was, just me trying to work out how to do interactive stuff in Flash. It was a grid of my head nine times or something and each one fired a different obscenity and you ran your mouse over it and it just was a cacophonous swearing machine. To my amazement, people really liked it. And I got asked if I would do another version for a company for £1,000, which is like, oh wow, people would pay you to do this. The early, early flash stuff was very, very basic. Because that’s what you could do. There’s a lot of the stuff about the style of that stuff, which is very of its time, isn’t it? But what people maybe don’t realize now is that it had to look that way because we were working with very, very restrictive bandwidths. People were still on dial up connections, you know. There was a real limit to the amount of information you could get down the pipe. So we had to do it in the most kind of minimal way to get it to work on the Internet.

Wailin: [00:04:13] This was the heyday of flash animation when creative people were making very simple but often hilarious cartoons and games and sharing them in online communities. Joel and his friends also messed around a lot with Photoshop. For one of his creations, he started with a picture of a tarsier, which is a small primate with big eyes that lives in Southeast Asia. Then like a digital doctor Frankenstein, he made a composite image by adding eyes, teeth and accessories from other pictures.

Joel: [00:04:40] I was making animals with bad teeth and hats and the tarsiers were a pretty good, pretty good candidates for that.

Wailin: [00:04:46] He called them spongmonkeys.

Joel: [00:04:50] And a couple of days after I’d made them, I went for a few drinks with my brother who I do a lot of songs with. We came back to my place and just put… actually recorded on a video camera, put the video camera on and he was playing the guitar and I just improvised the words by looking at yeah, things around the room really.

Spongmonkeys: [00:05:07] We like the moon! But not as much as a spoon! [crosstalk]

Joel: [00:05:14] And more times than not in the morning, you’d look back at what you’ve got and it was pretty dire. But that one I thought was still really funny, unusually. So I put the spongmonkeys on a little animation to it and that’s it. And I put it out and it was done in a day. I wasn’t really expecting it to do anything.

Spongmonkeys: [00:05:34] It is up in the sky. It’s up there high but not as high…

Ty: [00:05:39] I was up late one night. It’s one of the things where you’re just like cruising the internet, looking around.

Wailin: [00:05:45] This is Ty Harper. In the early 2000s he was an art director at the Martin Agency, an advertising firm in Richmond, Virginia. Ty had stumbled across Joel’s music video, “We Like the Moon.” The spongmonkeys, wearing their signature old-timey hats, were bouncing around in front of a still image of a garden with purple hydrangea bushes and a stone bench.

Ty: [00:06:05] And I was like, there’s so much wrong with this video, but I can’t stop laughing. So I, I bookmarked it. It was like one of the things you drag to the side, and you’re like, okay, I’m keeping that for something. I have no clue what it is, but I’m gonna, I’m just gonna make sure I have access to that.

Wailin: [00:06:22] Ty would get his shot to use the spongmonkeys in 2003, when the Martin Agency got the chance to compete for the Quiznos account. Kerry Feuerman was creative director at The Martin Agency.

Kerry: [00:06:32] They understood their target audience quite clearly in this case. And what made the work so interesting is their target audience primarily was guys 18 to 24 years old. And as an agency you love that target audience because they’re irreverent. I mean they do stupid stuff, jump off of balconies into swimming pools. I mean, they’re guys.

Wailin: [00:06:54] At The Martin Agency, different creative teams got to work. Ty was paired up with copywriter Raymond McKinney and immediately thought of the spongmonkeys and “We Like the Moon”.

Ty: [00:07:04] I pulled it back up and I showed it to my partner, to Raymond, and I was like, what about these guys? Yeah, they’re ugly. I get all that. But there’s such unbridled joy in that song, “We Love the moon.” And he just kind of spells it out, why they love it in just basic plain English. And it made them adorable to us. So, Raymond was like, hell yeah, we’re gonna try that. So we wrote one, the original “We Love the Subs” and we had our creative director, we said, hey, we want to have a meeting. We think we might have something.

Kerry: [00:07:38] And they handed me a laptop and they said, we want you to take a look at something. And they pushed play. And there were these weirdest damn characters I’ve ever seen in my life singing a song called “We Love the Moon.” I like to think that I’ve got an open mind as a creative guy. But when I saw these things, I have to say, my head started to explode thinking, Ty and Raymond, what the hell are you guys thinking?

Ty: [00:08:06] He took his glasses off and he rubbed the bridge of his nose and he put his glasses back on. I was like, oh, we’re dead.

Kerry: [00:08:13] You know, I basically said to them, look, okay, well put it on the wall. That’s what we say in the business. Put It on the wall. In other words, you pin it up there and then keep working as in keep working on new ideas. Well, they pinned it on the wall, but when I came back two days later, they had kept working but only on the spongmonkeys.

Ty: [00:08:31] We just sat in a little dark room and just kept writing more songs.

Kerry: [00:08:35] They blew it out. They turned it into “We Love the Subs” and they did TV spots and outdoor boards and digital and they just believed in the idea so strongly that when I sat down and looked at the wall with everything they had done, I was convinced that this stuff is frigging awesome.

Wailin: [00:08:54] So they were able to Kerry on board. Now the hard part was going to be convincing Quiznos.

Kerry: [00:08:59] We’re thinking, you know, how the hell do we sell this? It’s one thing to sell your creative director, it’s another thing to sell business people. What we did is we took the video, “We Love the Moon” and we went to the campus of Virginia Commonwealth University and we found our target audience guys walking across campus and we said, hey, will you take a look at something? So we handed them a laptop, we handed them headphones and we pushed play and we simply video’d the guys watching this crazy character singing, “We Love the Moon.” And they started laughing their asses off and they started saying, this is fucking awesome. I love these guys.

[00:09:45] Fast forward to the presentation, we’re now there with the client. You know our account guys and the strategy guys did all of their work and I said, okay actually before I show you the campaign, let’s take a look at something. I hit the button and on came the video, no explanation, just the video of these guys back to back. Guy after guy after guy laughing their asses off saying, “These things are awesome. You know, I don’t know what they are but I fucking love them.” Clients had no idea what the guys were looking at. You can’t watch a whole bunch of people laugh and not have it affect you. So they started smiling, but they were curious, you know, at the end they were willing to see something.

[00:10:27] That’s what you do when you’re a presenter. You have to get your audience to want to buy the work before you even show it to them. You need to create anticipation. So when it ended, I turned to the clients in the room and I said, “What are those guys looking at?” I said, “Oh, I know, your next campaign.” And then I pushed play one more time so the clients could see the characters singing, “We Love the Moon.”

[00:10:58] And then we showed them how we could turn those characters, who clearly their audience loved, into a campaign where they were now singing, “We Love the Subs.” They were shell shocked. I will say that. To their credit, though, they recognized they were not the people that needed to be persuaded. That it was young guys.

[00:11:20] A couple of days later, we received a phone call saying, not only do we want to hire you guys, but we want to produce that entire campaign. I mean you could have, you could have just knocked us over. We had to swing for the fences. We had to take a big risk and a big chance. But even by our standards, this spongmonkeys were out there. I mean, way out there.

Ty: [00:11:45] Kerry came into our office and said, they want to do this? And then the question was how. So I had to hurry up and find Joel’s site, and simply send an email that was like, please read this. It’s not from some crazy fan or somebody who thinks you’re sick or whatever. And I explained who I was and what the idea was and begged him, would you, would you be interested? Would you please be interested? And he almost wrote back, it was like almost immediately he was like, yeah, I’m really interested.

Joel: [00:12:19] I think that if you’re making stuff for yourself, it has to be about making something that you yourself find funny. Or if it’s comedy or you know, in whatever medium you’re in, whether it’s brilliant art or literature or any creative endeavor, it has to be something that you feel driven to make, right? Like it has to be for an audience of one and that audience has to be yourself. And that is the way you make truly interesting things. There’s a massive difference between somebody saying, “Oh, I love this thing you made. Can you do something like that for us.” Where the creative power is with you, and pitching for a job. People do sometimes ask, you know, cause they’ve got an animation project that needs doing, but it’s a very sensible one, you know, and when that happens, I tend to be quite honest and say, I’m probably not the best person to do that. If you want swishy graphics over something, I’m just not the right guy to do that. And if I try and do it, I’ll make a terrible mess of it. And it’ll be horrible.

Wailin: [00:13:22] Of course, in this case, The Martin Agency and Quiznos weren’t remotely interested in slick graphics or anything sensible. They wanted Joel’s falsetto, spongmonkeys with their bad teeth and old fashioned hats to sing the praises of Quiznos subs. And Joel, meanwhile, was in London working on other things.

Joel: [00:13:39] I mean I was having a nightmare at that point workwise because I was doing a TV show here, which was like a really quite a big deal too in terms of the amount of work I had to do. And the production office was in a basement and there was no phone reception and my phone wasn’t ringing and they were trying to call me. I was like, ah! And in the end I had to take some time off over Christmas and spend that time off doing this.

Wailin: [00:14:07] The Martin Agency flew Joel and his brother Al to Richmond, Virginia to record the ads.

Ty: [00:14:13] He’s just a great guy. And it seemed to me he was just thrilled to be here as we were to have him. It was really collaborative. Like, we had to record sometimes like some of the songs like eight, nine, ten times in a row just to get the speed up right. Yeah. Can you do it faster? Joel? He was so accommodating. He did not give up. There’s this… one of the songs about when he says they have a pepper bar and it was Joel, his voice was basically beat. And so by the time he got to that, his voice kinda gave out and bottomed out. And I think that’s what Raymond and I just laughed. It was like most people would be like, all right, let’s try it again. And we were like, now that one stays in, it’s too funny.

Joel: [00:14:53] Yeah, that’s, it’s a horrendous voice to record in ‘cause it murders your throat. Like it’s all right to do it for a few minutes. But to do it for like a day is awful. Um, but yeah, lots of fun.

Spongmonkeys: [00:15:05] THEY GOT A PEPPER BAR.

Announcer: [00:15:06] Quiznos new Santa Fe trio subs with smoky chipotle sauce…

Ty: [00:15:09] I had to fly to LA for a couple of days because there was this one cinematographer, you know, a DP, director of photography that Quiznos trusted, with their food and he had the oven and everything. Like, to film the subs. So we went out there and shot that part of the subs coming out of the oven. I remember looking at a monitor and marking it up with a marker on the screen. Going, okay. One monkey here and one monkey will be here and then composite it altogether after… with Joel’s song, his animation and the monkeys and stuff and that was that. It was really, it was quick and fairly painless.

Wailin: [00:15:47] In February of 2004 the ads debuted on American television. There were a few different spots. One were the spongmonkeys sang about, “We Love the Subs.” One were they sang about a coupon and one where they wore Viking hats and saying about how it would be barbaric to eat a non-toasted sub.

Spongmonkeys: [00:16:04] They are so good we’d eat them raw but eating raw subs is barbaric! We are not the Huns.

Announcer: [00:16:11] Right now, Quiznos [crosstalk]…

Ty: [00:16:14] We were told when it was going to run, so I was like made sure I was on the right channel when I saw it run, and I think that’s when I finally believed that it was real. Because you keep waiting on something, especially like this. You keep waiting for some grown-up somewhere to go, okay, we’re not running this. Who approved this? You’re all fired. But you know there was right there on my TV and my living room. So, I was like, well shit. It worked.

Kerry: [00:16:38] Within a day buzz was happening. I mean, you know there’s… it’s the old cliché in the industry. We want to create buzz. You can’t mandate that. We weren’t getting calls from media outlets like you wouldn’t believe. This was covered by the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal. We were on VH1. We were on ESPN Cold Pizza. We flew to New York and were on TV. They interviewed us. This was covered by Ad Age, Adweek. Creativity magazine, which is a big industry magazine, covered it and the creative director who reviewed it said something very interesting. “On the surface this just seems like a bunch of crazy maybe gross creatures, you know being funny,” but he says, “You look at this work. This campaign is brilliant retail advertising. The client’s store name, the logo is on the screen the entire time. Characters, they’re not just singing a funny song. They’re singing about the sub and that they’re toasted and they then show the toaster and the sandwich is going through the toaster and then they’re talking about the price of the sandwiches. This is brilliant.”

Wailin: [00:17:56] A story in the Denver Post from that time said Quiznos got 30,000 emails and phone calls in the first month of the campaign launching. The spongmonkeys managed to spark a national conversation. Meanwhile, back in London where Joel had returned to work. The ads weren’t airing at all.

Joel: [00:18:11] It was a really strange time because I was still in this basement working crazy hours on this, on this show. And everyone around me was slightly narky about me having taken time off to go and do this thing. And I think everyone was kind of like, didn’t really want me to bang on about it too much. They just wanted me to get on with what I was supposed to be doing there. And my phone wasn’t ringing because we were in the basement in this production. So I kept having to nip upstairs and they’d be like, cause it caused a real furor. And, um, everybody wanted to talk to me and it killed my website as well. My website immediately exploded. I was this kind of underground, weird, divisive celebrity briefly. Yeah. No, I loved every moment of it. It was wonderful.

Wailin: [00:18:52] However, not everyone was as excited about the ads as Joel and the folks at The Martin Agency.

Ty: [00:18:56] We were given a heads up that, that some people were complaining and we kind of laughed about it and said, oh, they’ll get over it. But I guess they didn’t.

Kerry: [00:19:04] Look, it’s a polarizing campaign and it’s a very edgy campaign. I would say if we made a mistake with the campaign, it was, we ran it on general media. At the time, you know, there was SpikeTV, MTV, VH1, all of those. It should have probably been exclusively on those channels. But I do think that some of the, the notoriety was because it ran in mainstream media that it horrified whole bunch of people who were middle aged. And that’s what got part of its buzz. I think all young people like the notion of rebellion and these characters were rebellious characters. And the fact that we are willing to take it out and put it right out in the middle of middle America landscape, um, was part of the rebellion. It was fun.

Joel: [00:20:04] It’s almost like a consent issue, right? If you’re doing something completely mental and you’re putting it on the Internet, people in that medium have a control over what they see. You know? And so if someone shows you that it’s because they usually, they think you’ll like it or you’ve gone there because you searched out this kind of nonsense. But if you put something mental on the telly and beam it into everyone’s homes, especially an ad because it’s not even the thing that they’re there to watch, everyone’s like, yeah, you’re forcing it on them in a slightly nonconsensual way. Uh, and I hadn’t thought about that at all until that point.

Wailin: [00:20:42] Quiznos eventually dropped The Martin Agency, but as Kerry explains, it wasn’t all because of the blow back from the spongmonkeys campaign.

Kerry: [00:20:49] The company was becoming more corporate. They had hired someone who came in from the more mainstream fast food sectors and they were much more conservative people than the people who actually bought the original work. So no, we weren’t… we weren’t fired. We did another campaign. It was a typical, show the sandwiches the entire time. Nothing interesting. It was all beauty shots of food, classic category advertising, which was remarkably uninteresting. And I’m sorry, they just sorta got what they deserved. The conservative people didn’t realize the DNA of this company Quiznos. And Quiznos has, well certainly not been the brand that it once was. Let’s say that. Huh?

Mark: [00:21:47] Quiznos is a really interesting story.

Wailin: [00:21:48] This is Mark Lohmann, chief brand officer for the REGO Restaurant Group.

Mark: [00:21:52] Currently our portfolio includes Quiznos and Taco Del Mar. We love working with brands, that maybe aren’t having their best day right now, but we love working with them to bring them back and to help turn them around based on what consumers want.

Wailin: [00:22:07] Mark Lohmann started his job in February. His company, REGO, is backed by a private equity firm that specializes in turnarounds of consumer brands. That should give you an idea of how Quiznos has fared in the period since the spongmonkeys ad. Ownership changed hands from one private equity firm to another. The company got sued by its own franchisees and filed for bankruptcy and it went from 4,700 US locations to 400 in 10 years.

Mark: [00:22:33] If you look at what made Quiznos successful, it really comes down to a few things. We built our foundation on having fantastic high-quality food that tastes great. We also build our foundation originally on innovation and coming out with new products and new ideas that other brands didn’t have and at the time that they weren’t willing to try.

[00:22:54] And then if you look at history, what happened to Quiznos has happened to a number of brands and that is, we lost our way. We started to stray from that north star and a lot of that happened during the economic downturn. And when you stray from your north star and you move away from who you are and what consumers want from you, it’s no surprise when challenges head your way.

Wailin: [00:23:16] Quiznos is still going after a young male demographic, but the media landscape is much different than it was in 2004. When Joel Veitch’s spongmonkeys were introduced to the world, it was before YouTube, before Instagram, before Netflix streaming and cord cutting, before Twitter and brands getting into fights on Twitter. Mark Lohmann says Quiznos is considering opportunities like Twitch, the live streaming platform for gamers.

Mark: [00:23:40] National television campaigns in the near term probably aren’t the best fit for us, but there are new tactics and new channels coming out like Twitch and other ways that really do seem to be reaching guests and reaching them in a way that we haven’t been able to reach them before. Twitch has incredibly high engagement within certain demographics and psychographics. And I would say that that many of those consumers are a good fit for what we’re designing for.

Kerry: [00:24:08] Everybody talks about it in the terms of well social media has taken over everything. But I can promise you, when you go to pitch a client these days, still the first words out of their mouth are basically show me the TV. And you can call it TV or not TV. But at the end of the day it’s still a commercial of sorts. And so it runs as a pre roll. You know where the parts of a… when you go to a website and they say, “You can skip this ad.” Well that’s still a commercial playing and if it’s not interesting, it’s just beauty shots of food, they are going to skip it. But when those characters come on and sing, “We Love the Subs.” You know, I’m sorry. In this day and age, people would continue watching it, I still believe. So, you know, if ever there was a time for creativity and film content that looks like commercials or whatever, it’s now. Because since consumers are in control of not only where, when, and how they’ll interact with your advertising, they’re in control of if they’ll even be bothered to interact with your advertising, which means it better be damn interesting and entertaining.

[00:25:25] So to me, the spongmonkeys would explode in today’s social media age.

Wailin: [00:25:31] So, if that’s how the media landscape looks for people in marketing and advertising, what does that look like for people like Joel Veitch, who are still making weird stuff for themselves?

Joel: [00:25:40] It was a bit the Wild West back in the kind of early 2000s. The Internet was very open and it really just depended on what people were sending to each other, and that was all that mattered. And then you know, as Google got cleverer and then YouTube came along and then Facebook, it all became beholden to these huge multinational corporations and their invisible algorithms, all of which were designed to maximize revenue for said corporations.

[00:26:11] And it changed the game enormously. A lot of the people from my cohort who make animations have really struggled over the last few years because if you were dependent on Youtube, which is what a lot of creatives are, then animation is a real problem because animation is hard and time consuming and expensive to make. And it is a medium, which, you know, if you’re spending ages in a fortune on making two minutes of really high-quality stuff, but the algorithm is rewarding somebody who’s sitting looking at a camera, talking about Fortnite or makeup for half an hour, which they can just do in real time. There’s, there’s no way of really making that viable and that’s a shame. That is a shame.

[00:27:01] I have a different outlook on life now, in a number of ways. And so, I spent my early years bouncing from short thing to short thing. And that’s great. When you’re younger and you don’t have to worry about, you know, feeding your kids and stuff. But you know, I’m a bit older now and I have to be a little bit more responsible. And also I’d spent years doing very short form things and I wanted to concentrate more on bigger, more lasting stuff.

Wailin: [00:27:31] It seems fitting then, in the afterlife of this super weird commercial, that a couple of animated singing creatures that Joel in his brother created on a whim when end up burrowing so far into the American cultural consciousness

Mark: [00:27:45] I look at is one of the many successful brand campaigns over the last 10 or 20 years, that really helped drive consumers to the Quiznos brand. It was something that when it came on TV you noticed because it was a little bit different. It was a little bit odd in a very, very good way. And because of that people remembered it and took action and visited Quiznos. They wanted to see what all the buzz was about. And when we talk to guests and consumers today, we get a lot of feedback about the campaign still.

Jonas: [00:28:14] My wife’s family owned a Quiznos before that, predating the ads. So, we were familiar with Quiznos anyway and kind of liked it. And I’m like very into sandwiches.

Wailin: [00:28:20] Again, this is Jonas at Basecamp.

Jonas: [00:28:22] So yeah, we would go and get the sandwiches and I remember, yeah, like I was like more into Quiznos after that, thinking like, “Oh this is a company that something’s going on. I don’t know what’s going on. But I like what they’re up to.” My wife and I kind of had a running gag about it and we would go around sort of quoting the song in the like offensive off-key voice and be like, “I got a pepper bar!” Like we go around and do that.

Kerry: [00:28:43] I now train creative people and account people and strategy people around the country at agencies on how to present and sell creative work. In the workshops that I do, the only piece of creative work than I show because people want to know how I sold it, and how we sold it as an agency, is the Quiznos work. And now, many of the people that I’m doing in my workshop are now 25, 27 years old, you know, 30-years-old and you know, they were 15, 12, 14-years-old when the Quiznos campaign came out. And when I play it, they all start laughing. They start reminiscing of remembering seeing these characters and it’s the campaign that keeps on giving. When you’re able to do that, it never leaves them. And they remember it to this day.

Ty: [00:29:32] I mean they’re still on my website and they’re in that old format, you know, it was before, like TV’s got like, everybody had widescreen or whatever. So they’re in that old format, but I’ll be damned. I’m not giving them up. I love those little fuckers!

[00:29:44] Broken By Design by Clip Art plays.

Wailin: [00:29:46] Rework is produced by Shaun Hildner, and me, Wailin Wong. Our theme music is Broken By Design by Clip Art.

[00:29:52] Special thanks to Jim Burns and Meredith Turk for their help with this episode.

Shaun: [00:29:56] You can find Joel’s work at We’ll link to his site and all the videos mentioned in this episode in the show notes, which you can always find at

Kerry: [00:30:18] Quiznos had been a very good advertiser. They had an agency, Cliff Freeman & Partners, which still is, in my opinion, one of the greatest agencies of all time. Particularly in the area of retail food advertising. I mean, they did all the Little Caesars stuff back in the ‘90s and 2000s, which was excellent.

Wailin: [00:30:38] PIZZA PIZZA.

Kerry: [00:30:39] Pizza pizza! Exactly.